Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
- tinaliu
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3 years 3 months ago #232
by tinaliu
Replied by tinaliu on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
Hi Don,
In the Service Station tab, row 4 to 16 includes information needed to calculate energy used to compress or liquefy NG or H2. I am looking at D6, vehicular storage pressure which is from Input C252 (vehicle fuel tank storage pressure). Is it the pressure of the fuel tank of the vehicle (fuel used for the vehicle), or the pressure of the fuel in the storage tank being transported?
I tried changing the number and it doesn't change the results in "upstream results HHV" CN9
In the Service Station tab, row 4 to 16 includes information needed to calculate energy used to compress or liquefy NG or H2. I am looking at D6, vehicular storage pressure which is from Input C252 (vehicle fuel tank storage pressure). Is it the pressure of the fuel tank of the vehicle (fuel used for the vehicle), or the pressure of the fuel in the storage tank being transported?
I tried changing the number and it doesn't change the results in "upstream results HHV" CN9
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3 years 3 months ago #233
by tinaliu
Replied by tinaliu on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
Hi Don,
We have a list of chemicals used in the water treatment plant before the water can be used as a feedstock. I assume the chemicals used would need to be entered into the Alt Fuel Prod tab, Q29:Q78. However, we have chemicals that are not on the list. How would I be able to include these chemicals in the calculations?
Thanks
We have a list of chemicals used in the water treatment plant before the water can be used as a feedstock. I assume the chemicals used would need to be entered into the Alt Fuel Prod tab, Q29:Q78. However, we have chemicals that are not on the list. How would I be able to include these chemicals in the calculations?
Thanks
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- doconnor
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3 years 2 months ago #234
by doconnor
Replied by doconnor on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
There is no place to specifically account for water transportation. However that would mostly likely be by pipeline so the power for the pump would be included in the electricity input for the electrolysis.
Regards
Don O'Connor
Regards
Don O'Connor
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- tinaliu
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3 years 2 months ago #235
by tinaliu
Replied by tinaliu on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
Hi Don,
Thank you for your response. Is the emissions associated with the construction of the pipeline not part of the scope of GHGenius or it is something we should consider and calculate outside of GHGenius?
On the "Transport" tab, cell BA83, there is an energy per km shipped via pipeline, 16,000 kJ/tonne-km-shipped. What sources of emission does this include? Could you provide a reference to that? is there a list of references to the default values within GHGenius?
Thanks and I appreciate your input.
Thank you for your response. Is the emissions associated with the construction of the pipeline not part of the scope of GHGenius or it is something we should consider and calculate outside of GHGenius?
On the "Transport" tab, cell BA83, there is an energy per km shipped via pipeline, 16,000 kJ/tonne-km-shipped. What sources of emission does this include? Could you provide a reference to that? is there a list of references to the default values within GHGenius?
Thanks and I appreciate your input.
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- doconnor
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3 years 2 months ago #236
by doconnor
Replied by doconnor on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
Pipeline construction would be infrastructure, which would be outside of the scope of most regulatory requirements.
There is not very much information on the energy requirements of pipelines but the values in GHGenius were based on some data published for the Alaska pipeline and then adjusted for the impact of smaller pipelines for other products.
BA83 is 250 kj/tonne-km. The value that you quoted would be for a 64 km pipeline.
Regards
Don O'Connor
There is not very much information on the energy requirements of pipelines but the values in GHGenius were based on some data published for the Alaska pipeline and then adjusted for the impact of smaller pipelines for other products.
BA83 is 250 kj/tonne-km. The value that you quoted would be for a 64 km pipeline.
Regards
Don O'Connor
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3 years 2 months ago #237
by tinaliu
Replied by tinaliu on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
Thank you.
BA83 in tab Transport is a number without calculation, and is 16,000 kJ/tonne-km-shipped. row 83 columns B to AW, AY, and BD is 250 kJ/tonne-kg-shipped. The values are different in some other columns, including BA83.
I see the calculation from tab "upstream results HHV" CN10 included "Energy Use K136", which included Transport BA84 in the calculation. BA84 is the product of BA81, BA82 and BA83, which is tonne-shipped/tonne produced from the input tab, average km shipped from the input tab, and 16,000 kj/tonne-km-shipped. If I am understanding the calculation correctly, 16,000 kj/tonne-km should be for each km?
what does the 250 or 16,000 kj/tonne-km include? the shipping (i.e., compression) but not the infrastructure?
I appreciate your help on this matter.
BA83 in tab Transport is a number without calculation, and is 16,000 kJ/tonne-km-shipped. row 83 columns B to AW, AY, and BD is 250 kJ/tonne-kg-shipped. The values are different in some other columns, including BA83.
I see the calculation from tab "upstream results HHV" CN10 included "Energy Use K136", which included Transport BA84 in the calculation. BA84 is the product of BA81, BA82 and BA83, which is tonne-shipped/tonne produced from the input tab, average km shipped from the input tab, and 16,000 kj/tonne-km-shipped. If I am understanding the calculation correctly, 16,000 kj/tonne-km should be for each km?
what does the 250 or 16,000 kj/tonne-km include? the shipping (i.e., compression) but not the infrastructure?
I appreciate your help on this matter.
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- doconnor
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3 years 2 months ago #238
by doconnor
Replied by doconnor on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
Sorry for misleading you, I was looking at B83.
BA 83 is the energy required to move one tonne of hydrogen one kilometre. It is only the transportation energy and it does not include any infrastructure related emissions.
Here is a recent paper on hydrogen pipelines.
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211467X21000444
They cite another paper that says that hydrogen pipeline use 3.85 times as much energy to move an equivalent energy to NG. A tonne of hydrogen contains 2.7 times the energy of NG. So that would be 10.4 times as much energy on a mass basis. The ratio in the model is 12.1.
The energy required does depend on the capacity of the pipeline. The NG energy in the model is calculated from StatsCan data and is currently lower than historical levels due to low throughput.
I hope that this helps.
Regards
Don O'Connor
BA 83 is the energy required to move one tonne of hydrogen one kilometre. It is only the transportation energy and it does not include any infrastructure related emissions.
Here is a recent paper on hydrogen pipelines.
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211467X21000444
They cite another paper that says that hydrogen pipeline use 3.85 times as much energy to move an equivalent energy to NG. A tonne of hydrogen contains 2.7 times the energy of NG. So that would be 10.4 times as much energy on a mass basis. The ratio in the model is 12.1.
The energy required does depend on the capacity of the pipeline. The NG energy in the model is calculated from StatsCan data and is currently lower than historical levels due to low throughput.
I hope that this helps.
Regards
Don O'Connor
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- ChangeEnergy
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3 years 2 months ago #270
by ChangeEnergy
Replied by ChangeEnergy on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
Hi Don - I had a follow up question regarding a question asked in this thread. We're attempting to use the user defined grid (row 21 of Power Gen), and I noticed that there's a note that states that the user defined grid is not automatically used in any pathway. How would we get our pathway to use that grid? We're looking at a similar pathway to the one described here (i.e., electricity and water to produce hydrogen, just in Ontario). I've selected User Defined for Input B31 and User Grid for Input B34, and also entered Ontario for Input B4 and Input B32. Is there an input that we're missing? Thanks in advance!
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3 years 2 months ago #271
by doconnor
Replied by doconnor on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
The user defined grid is only active for a few pathways and hydrogen from electrolysis is not currently one of them. We will change that in the next version.
However it is pretty simple to use the user defined grid for hydrogen via electrolysis. On the Upstream results HHV sheet in cell CN11 (version 5.01d) look for 'Elec Emissions'!$B55 in the formula and change the B55 to B56.
That will then use your defined grid for hydrogen production and the regional grid for everything else.
Regards
Don O'Connor
However it is pretty simple to use the user defined grid for hydrogen via electrolysis. On the Upstream results HHV sheet in cell CN11 (version 5.01d) look for 'Elec Emissions'!$B55 in the formula and change the B55 to B56.
That will then use your defined grid for hydrogen production and the regional grid for everything else.
Regards
Don O'Connor
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- tinaliu
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2 years 10 months ago #331
by tinaliu
Replied by tinaliu on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
Hi Don,
I am comparing the CI in the GHGenius using BC grid power and the CI from BC Hydro. It is 15,987 g/GJ delivered ('Elec Emissions'!B55) based on the breakdown of generation type in 'Power Gen B20:L20. It is approximately 57.6 tonne/GWh. Is this an average of the whole province? Which year is the data from? Looking at the website (www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/c...quantify/electricity), the CI is very differently depending on the grid/location. If we know we are in the integrated grid, would it make sense to update the value?
I am comparing the CI in the GHGenius using BC grid power and the CI from BC Hydro. It is 15,987 g/GJ delivered ('Elec Emissions'!B55) based on the breakdown of generation type in 'Power Gen B20:L20. It is approximately 57.6 tonne/GWh. Is this an average of the whole province? Which year is the data from? Looking at the website (www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/environment/c...quantify/electricity), the CI is very differently depending on the grid/location. If we know we are in the integrated grid, would it make sense to update the value?
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- doconnor
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2 years 10 months ago #332
by doconnor
Replied by doconnor on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
The grid mix in 5.01 if from the Canadian Energy Regulator Energy Futures 2019. It is a forecast value that changes by year.
BC Hydro does not include methane emissions from the reservoirs according to the latest IPCC Guidelines.
Regards
Don O'Connor
BC Hydro does not include methane emissions from the reservoirs according to the latest IPCC Guidelines.
Regards
Don O'Connor
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2 years 10 months ago - 2 years 10 months ago #333
by tinaliu
Replied by tinaliu on topic Electrolysis to produce H2 using grid power
Thank you
Last edit: 2 years 10 months ago by tinaliu.
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